Logic in the Eternal Security Debate

It has been 25 years since I first understood the implications of believing salvation can be lost, especially from the preterist perspective. Also, why is this debate so incredibly important? Some think it is a trivial debate, but is a difference between believing in salvation by grace versus believing in salvation by works. We must not view this difference as secondary, peripheral, non-essential etc. It is a critical difference between the Gospel and a false gospel.

Paul disputed daily about the difference between salvation by grace vs. salvation by works. So must we. In the process of doing this we are often accused of being unloving. While we love people, we can openly argue against error. But some take this as unloving. Therefore we take great care to not attack a person or character but instead we stick with the argument and facts, and we avoid ad hominem attacks. Such attacks are not loving. We judge no man, nor do we state our view of the status of their salvation, pro or con.

But we may freely judge bad philosophy and erroneous doctrine, and if that is considered unloving, then so be it:
1) If we can lose your salvation, who is maintaining it?

If our answer is: we are maintaining it, then is this not salvation by works?

If our answer is: God is maintaining it, and we lost it, then God failed
Now, if we are in the kingdom now, and physical death doesn’t affect our status, but we simply continue living in the kingdom after we die, then, if we can lose our salvation now, why can we not also lose our salvation after we die? That is, if our will is free to lose our salvation now, why is it not also free to lose our salvation after we die?

If we argue that we cannot lose our salvation after we die, are we saying that our will is no longer free after we die? What Scripture teaches that our will is free before we die but not free after we die?

If we answer that our will is not free after we die, what is wrong with saying our will is not free before we die? Spiritually speaking, what is the theological difference? Rather, we conclude that our will is neither free to lose our salvation before we die nor after we die:

John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out. (38) For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. (39) And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.

In which part of these promises has God failed? Since we do not believe that God fails, the promise is sure:
1) All that the Father gives to Christ *will* come to Christ. There is no failure in that. It is a guarantee, for it is impossible for God to lie. We believe that Christ told the truth. And this giving us to the Son must happen before we come to the Son. The promise is sure. All those given to the Son *will* come. What is the next promise?
2) and the one who comes to the Son He will in no way cast out. Again, this is a promise and a guarantee. Why? “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me, I should lose nothing…” Again, there is no possibility of an alternative here. Our will is not free to counter the will of the Father. He gave us to the Son, and we came to the Son because we were first given to the Son. And because we were given to the Son, we came to the Son, and the Son promises that we will not be cast out. If one loses their salvation, they were never given to the Son, and they never truly came to the Son: 1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

John is clear in both books. “They were not of us.” He did not say, “They once were of us…” When they went out, *that* was the revelation that they were not all of us: “That it might be revealed that they were not all of us.” Christ did not say, “Depart from Me. I once knew you but then you left.” Rather, Christ says, “Depart from Me. I *never* knew you.” But John doesn’t stop there: He reiterates the promise of God:
John 10:26-29 But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you, (27) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (28) And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. (29) My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand.

Notice the order: The Pharisees did not believe because they were already not His sheep. All His sheep hear His voice. And the guarantee is certain: “And they follow Me.” That is, they never go away. But they first must be His sheep, whether they were pre AD 70 sheep of the house of Israel or post AD 70 sheep. God’s promise is sure. And it is also sure that “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.” If a believer perishes, then Christ lied. If a believer perishes, then they lost their eternal life, and thus their life was never eternal. Christ would have to lie multiple times if a person can lose their salvation or suddenly stop believing. “No one is able to pluck them out of My hand.” But this promise fails is we pluck ourselves out of His hand, thus we would make God a liar. Why did the Gentiles in the book of Acts believe?

Act 13:48 And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
This goes hand in hand with, “All that the Father gives me will come to Me.” The “ordaining” and the “giving” came first–not the belief. The belief is the result of the ordaining.

Here are the implications of believing one can lose their salvation, and such slander and maligning of God is obvious, if we believe we can lose our salvation:
1. He is not able to perform what He had promised Romans 4:21
2. He will not present me blameless 1 Thessalonians 5:24
3. He did not predestine me unto the adoption as a child Ephesians 1:5
4. There is condemnation for me even though I am in Christ Jesus Romans 8:1
5. Christ has not risen from the dead Romans 6:8-12
6. The Holy Spirit will take back His deposit Ephesians 1:13-14
7. The Holy Spirit did not seal us 2 Corinthians 1:22
8. He will leave me and He will forsake me Hebrews 13:5
9. He will not keep me from falling Jude 24
10. He will not preserve me forever Psalm 37:28
11. The truth (Jesus Christ) will not be with me forever 2 John 2
12. He did not cleanse me from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9
13. His foundation is not sure 2 Timothy 2:19
14. He does not know them that are His 2 Timothy 2:19
15. He will cast me out John 6:37
16. He did not perfect me Hebrews 10:14
17. His prayer for me was not answered John 17:11-12
18. He is not interceding for me Hebrews 7:25
19. He did not complete the work He began in me Philippians 1:6
20. My life is not hid with Christ in God Colossians 3:3
21. I have not passed from death unto life John 5:24
22. He is not able to keep that which I have committed to Him 2 Timothy
1:12
23. I am not at peace with God Romans 5:1
24. I can be plucked out of His hand John 10:28-29
25. I can be separated from the love of God Romans 8:39
26. His righteousness is not everlasting Psalm 119:142
27. His love is not everlasting Jeremiah 31:3
28. He is not immutable Hebrews 6:18
29. He did not keep His promise Hebrews 6:17
30. He is a liar Titus 1:2
The belief that one can lose their salvation has catastrophic effects regarding the nature and character of God and theology proper. Such a belief is not the Gospel but instead is a human-centered fabrication designed to manipulate people by fear and guilt. Such a doctrine produces only fear and torment. Such a doctrine is not a doctrine of love, but rather of fear, self-centeredness, self-worship, and self-deification. It is not the Gospel. It is another Jesus and another Gospel rooted in fear, torment, guilt manipulation, and self-righteousness. It produces a judgmental spirit and creates division.
1Jn 4:18-19 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears has not been perfected in love. (19) We love Him because He first loved us.
Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel, (7) which is not another, but some are troubling you, and desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?

By Ward Fenley – Chosen People Royal Priesthood Holy Nation –

How Christians And Conservatives Are Helping To Destroy America

What makes America America? What distinguishes this country from the nations of the world–or from world history, for that matter? Even casual historians must admit that there has never been a country like the United States of America ever to exist. This nation is unique to world history. There has never been a country like this–and probably will never be one like it again.

As hard as it is for the anti-God types to admit, America has a deeply-rooted Christian history and culture. However, when one says, “America is a Christian country,” (usually spoken by a Christian, of course), he or she may mean something that NEVER existed. So, let’s set the record straight: America was never founded as a theocracy. And even though there are some well-meaning, albeit naïve, Christian people today who pretend that America once had, and should have again, a theocratic-type government and society, the fact is, America was NEVER a theocracy.

The only theocracy in the history of the world was Old Testament Israel under Moses. After the death of Moses, God expected Israel to be governed by the principles established through Moses. Even the reign of Israel’s greatest king, King David, could not be classified as a theocracy. He, too, was expected to adhere to the tenets and principles of Moses. Only through Moses did God directly govern the people. And even within the government of Israel, God established the roots of what became known as republican (small “r”) government. But I will save that discussion for a later day.

So, if by “Christian nation” people mean that America was established as some sort of theocracy, they are gravely mistaken. It is also unfortunate that some well-meaning (at least, I think they are well-meaning) Christian people give the unchurched world the impression that they are trying to create some sort of theocracy in America today. Some even go so far as to teach that we don’t need a Constitution or State and municipal laws–and any such laws are themselves evil. This is an asinine philosophy, to say the least.

I, for one, would never want a so-called theocracy administered by the likes of the vast majority of Christian teachers and pastors today. Are you kidding? Most of them can’t even govern a small congregation of believers who are ostensibly assembled under the same ideology, same eschatology, same ecclesiology, etc. Have you been to a church business meeting lately? You really want those people dictating national laws? God forbid!

No! There is no Moses on the scene today with new revelation dictating God’s will for the nation. That being said, there is no mistaking the fact that America has a deeply-rooted, rich Christian tradition.

America’s founders, even those who were not professing Christians, as we understand the term today, acknowledged that fact.

The principles of the Christian faith include both Natural and Revealed Law. The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, especially, clearly illustrate the founder’s understanding and appreciation for these principles.

The Declaration begins, “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which THE LAWS OF NATURE AND OF NATURE’S GOD [emphasis added] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the cause which impel them to the separation.

“We hold these truths to be SELF-EVIDENT [emphasis added], that all men are CREATED [emphasis added] equal, that they are endowed BY THEIR CREATOR [emphasis added] with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.”

As Thomas Jefferson quickly penned the Declaration (and he did write it rather quickly), he was borrowing heavily from John Locke and the commonly understood principles of Natural Law. Though the founders were dissimilar in regards to their understanding of Biblical teaching, to a man, they understood and agreed with the “self-evident” principles of Natural Law, or “the Laws of Nature.”

Furthermore, virtually every “right” enumerated in the Bill of Rights can be traced directly to commonly understood principles contained in Natural and Revealed Law. That fact is unassailable….

Some of the most enslaved people on the planet are professing Christians. Many of our churches, Christian schools, colleges, seminaries, etc. are filled with the “servants of men.” The fact that our public education system fails to teach children to think critically is only matched by too many of today’s churches and Christian schools.

Not only do so many Christians have a slave mentality; they also have a war mentality. Who are the ones who are the first and loudest cheerleaders for perpetual wars of aggression in the Middle East? Christians and conservatives! But why should that surprise us? Look at our churches. What do you see? Perpetual war: infighting, gossip, slander, backbiting, name-calling, character assassination, etc. Some of the most mean-spirited, low-down, dishonest, conniving, and blood-thirsty people on the planet call themselves Christians. Believe me, if they could get away with it, there is no telling how many people in our country would be losing their heads at the hands of these pious-talking Christians. Hatred and bitterness is nothing more than murder of the heart; and millions of professing Christians are as guilty as can be….

The assault against the United States is massive. We are fast losing our Christian heritage and culture–and Christians are as much to blame as anyone. They have tried to turn the Lord’s Church into a playground or entertainment center–or even worse, a corporation. Phariseeism is rampant. As a result, unbelievers have lost all respect for churches in general. I, for one, don’t blame them.

We have lost our understanding of, and appreciation for, Natural Law. Even most pastors cannot articulate the fundamental principles of Natural Law, even though this is the Law upon which America was founded. This means, we have lost the true meaning of America’s Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.

We cheer as our country has turned into a “Warfare State.” We applaud as our nation has turned into an Orwellian surveillance society. We are losing our common language, our common history and heritage, and our common faith. Christianity in 2014-15 is not even comparable to Christianity in 1775-76. We have traded Jonas Clark for Joel Osteen….

By Chuck Baldwin – ChuckBaldwinLive.com –

Romans 13 : The Higher Liberty

By Gregory Williams – HisHolyChurch.org –

“You can fool all of the people some of the time and You can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time.” Abraham Lincoln.

When I first began to talk about government and the Bible in the same paragraphs, I heard people respond with quotes from Romans 13 probably more than any other verse. It Reads:

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” Romans 13: 1

Of course we should honor true authority, such as our Father and Mother, or others that God places over us (or we go under by contract and agreement), but is that even what Romans 13 is talking about? Have we been completely misled about the meaning of that scripture by Paul?

The Greek word exousia translated in Romans 13:1 as power or authority actually means the “right to choose”, the “power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases.”1

It is also translated as the word “right” in Revelations.

“Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have [exousia] right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” Re 22:14

The whole idea of the tree of life is about choice and the right to choose, to obey God, and follow him and not your own willfulness. Nor are we to go under the will of other men and their created institutions which may establish an authority over us as we see with Cain, Nimrod and Pharaoh.

Paul is simply telling you in Romans 13 that you should remain subject to the better or higher liberty or right to choose.

Exousia is even translated as “liberty” in 1 Corinthians.

“But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.” 1Co 8:9

The word liberty in this verse is the same word translated power in Romans 13.

Christ came to set men free not to deliver them into the bondage of governments like those of Egypt or Babylon. Early Christians were part of a government appointed by Christ and were cast out2 of the Hellenized Pharisaical system of Corban in Judea when thousands accepted Christ at Pentecost. They began to live according to those precepts established in the perfect law of liberty, by faith, hope and charity. This was done with freewill offerings, and not the covetous and forced offerings of benefactors in other governments who exercised authority.

 
Continue Reading

Pharisee Christians

By Sartre – Global Gulag –

Artificial Christians are AWOL: apostate whores – orthodoxy lost. What does it means to be a believer? The most fundamental canon is to accept the Creator as Lord. Since this concept seems to evade the store bought social climbers who pretend to be religious, why not just settle this issue once and for all time.

The total disconnect, from simple logic, would have you accept that a Nation assembled upon the “free exercise thereof” of religion must ban the expression of belief in the Deity of creation, as a condition of a free society. By default this sophistry demands that the standard for the public government MUST be that of the non-believer. Pray tell – the atheist has become the converted idol – for the proclaimed secular humanism deus society. Common sense affirms that prohibition produces replacement. If God is taboo, the State commits the supreme sin of absolute pride.

If the highest law is denied, how can it be possible to have a valid rule of law passed by men! Which is to be obeyed? Lacking communal acknowledgment on the reality of God and that His laws for human conduct were revealed within the Ten Commandments, obligates honest rational citizens to concede that the basic schism is between those who believe and those who deny.

It would be one thing to base a government upon the principle that one cannot know for sure, and therefore requires a standard of agnosticism. But this is not the case. America has their share of skeptics and empiricists; however, it would be deceitful to claim that our heritage is one of cynicism. Abandoning worship of the almighty for a secular culture guarantees the reign of the Prince of Darkness. Confusing the issue with institutions of clergy, church sects or religious denominations totally avoids the central tenet. Is the source of moral and ethical law a function of court decree, arbitrary public sentiment or relative circumstance OR has all mankind been touched by the hand of the divine creator with the tablets that prescribe authentic behavior? It doesn’t get any more basic then the choice you will make. Your answer determines if our country has any common ground to continue as one nation. It’s an either – or – acceptance. No society can sustain a civic nihilism and preserve a private faith. The civil war that is being waged is a spiritual conflict. The cultural fallout is a symptom of the godless secularists intent to outlaw our founding beliefs.

 
Continue Reading –

Jesus and Power Politics

By Caleb Eaton – HigherLiberty.com –

This scene portraying Jesus like a drunken, hippie, wild man has been reinforced by popular media. But suppose that interpretation is as ridiculous and as unenlightened as most other things in the mainstream media. If mainstream media promotes this view of Jesus, isn’t that the first clue that something smells funny? But how would they know any better since the same picture is promoted in government-licensed churches?

There’s a way of looking at this passage that makes much more sense…and makes Jesus a much more impressive character…

…a picture of high-powered politics emerges. Jesus was the newly recognized king of Judea which was one of the world’s richest nations that included a major port city and was the pivot point of many trade routes. Just as a new US president fires the judges of the previous president, it was Jesus’ responsibility to replace government employees with those he trusted.

The new king was turning over the banking system (Federal Reserve) and “tax collection” duties to people he trusted. In fact, he was re-instituting a style of government based on freewill offerings as Abraham and Moses originally setup for Israel. But the pharisees had become rich off the FORCED contributions of the people (taxes), hence they conspired to kill the new king that was upsetting their cushy lifestyle.

Ask JFK if politics has changed much in 2000 years.

 
Continue Reading

Are Christians Idiots?

From HigherLiberty.com –

When Christ spoke of the Kingdom there was a revolution going on in Judea and the world. The policies and practices of politicians and people had the world on a one way road to social and economic destruction. John the Baptist and Jesus were turning the world upside down. They were shaming the hypocrites who claimed to be following Moses but did not know him nor the God who sent him to free the people.

Acts 4:13 “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.”…

Christians provided for one another in charity and did not participate in the free bread welfare of Rome as we see the Pharisees doing.4 The Pharisees had chosen Caesar’s ways and government as their benefactor. The Christians were not involved in the public affairs of the Pharisees. Christians were involved in public affairs of Christ working daily in the temple.5

The temple in Jerusalem, the same as those of Rome, was the center of their social welfare. With the baptism of John, Christ’s followers, who were eventually called Christians, had opted out of a social welfare system that had snared the people under the authority of Herod’s welfare state.6 Christians had another king, one Jesus, and were standing fast in the liberty of Christ. The persecution of Christians by public magistrates was often based on their refusal to participate in the temple welfare systems of Rome.

The word translated marvelled in Acts is “thaumazo” which is also translated in the Bible as “have in admiration” and “admire.” They were impressed and yet they did not like what they were hearing. Many modern Christians would not want to hear the truth of what the early church was doing either.

 
Continue Reading

Pastors And Churches Violating First Commandment

By Pastor Chuck Baldwin – News With Views –

Pastors today who say that Jesus never challenged civil government don’t know what they are talking about. The Pharisees were as much a part of the civil government of Rome as they were a spiritual authority of Judaism. In fact, they were the direct authority of Rome over Judea. By challenging the authority of the Pharisees, Jesus was challenging the authority of Rome. The Pharisees–and everyone else–understood it. That’s what the question of the Roman penny was all about. And that’s why the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a traitor to Caesar (civil government) before Pilate. And that’s why the Pharisees hated Jesus: he dared to challenge their authority–civil and spiritual.

Jesus is the Sovereign Lord. When the Pharisees accused him of breaking the Sabbath, he reminded them that he is Lord even over the Sabbath. He proved himself to be the Lord over sickness and disease, over the wind and waves, even over death and hell. And when he challenged the authority of the Pharisees, Christ was showing that he was Lord over the lives of his people in relationship to the church AND THE STATE. Jesus said, “All power (authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” Christ Jesus is the one true Sovereign–the ONLY one true Sovereign. And, again, this has been the foundation of Christianity for over 2,000 years.

 
Continue Reading